How Proper Tracking Will Unlock Huge Profits

May 9, 2024

Patrick Carver

Hi, I’m Patrick Carver / CEO, Constellation Marketing

I hope you enjoy listening to this podcast.
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Key Takeaways

1. WhatConverts provides marketing attribution software to track where leads and customers originate from
2. How detailed reporting and high visibility can improve your sales process
3. How attribution transform’s client relationships

Welcome to The Optimized Law Firm Podcast where we talk about how to run a more profitable and enjoyable law firm. 

I’m your host Patrick Carver and I’m the owner of Constellation Marketing. We help hungry law firm owners transcend seven figures and gain total ROI clarity with their marketing. Today, we have a special treat for you. We’ll be interviewing Michael Cooney, the CEO of WhatConverts, a company that specializes in tracking and understanding where your business is coming from. This is crucial for any law firm looking to scale, especially in competitive practice areas.


0:00:00 – Introduction

Michael Cooney introduces himself and WhatConverts to Patrick Carver’s podcast audience.

2:30:00 – The problem WhatConverts solves

Michael explains how agencies and clients struggle with inaccurate marketing attribution, leading him to create WhatConverts.

5:00:00 – How WhatConverts works

Michael provides an overview of WhatConverts’ technology for tracking marketing attribution through cookies and metadata.

7:30:00 – Success story example

Patrick shares a story where WhatConverts revealed a law firm’s SEO was driving leads, not their chatbot.

10:00:00 – Integrations and optimizations

Michael discusses WhatConverts integrations with CRMs and bid optimization in platforms like Google Ads

22 – How Proper Tracking Will Unlock Huge Profits (1)


Patrick Carver: All right. Welcome to another episode of the Optimize Law Firm podcast, where we talk about how to run a more profitable and enjoyable law firm. I’m your host, Patrick Carver, and I’m the CEO of Constellation Marketing. We like to say we help hungry law firm owners transcend seven figures, and part of our mission is to gain total ROI clarity on their marketing.

Today, it really is a special treat for you and for myself. We’re going to be speaking with Michael Cooney, who is the CEO of what converts, and it’s a company who specializes in tracking and understanding where your business is coming from. We think this is crucial for any law firm who is looking to scale.

And they want to know where their business is coming from so they can Increase the amount of investment in the things that are going right while being smart and efficient, cutting out the things that aren’t working. So thanks [00:01:00] Michael for joining us. I’m really excited to have you here. 

Michael Cooney: Oh, great.

Thank you for having me, man. I should get you in my sales team. That sounded wonderful. 

Patrick Carver: It’s, I told you, when we were just chatting a second ago that I’ve been on a real attribution kick with our our business and, just consistently. Across the board. We’ve, we’ve been in business for about seven years and, the one common thread we have when it comes to losing clients or just even, frustration with working with clients is really ROI.

That’s always the question that it comes down to is, is the money I’m giving you. And your company actually working. And so for me, it’s really like the Holy grail of marketing and having good relationships with our clients, because there’s been a lot of times where we know we’re generating ROI, but we don’t really know it.

We don’t know it as a fact. And a lot of, I think agencies and just companies in general struggle with being able to attribute that revenue and actually show and prove that who’s responsible for it. So maybe you can tell us [00:02:00] just a little bit about marketing attribution, what it is and why do you feel like it’s so important?

Michael Cooney: Yeah, absolutely. When you’re talking there, it reminded me when I ran my own marketing agency and before that I ran a marketing directory where people paid us for leads. So I’ve been generating leads and people have been paying me essentially for leads, For the last 25 years, and it’s been a 25 year journey of pain because it’s so difficult to track.

So you can imagine in a directory, they’re paying you for money and they’re paying you money and then they make a phone call and you can’t track it. So that’s a problem. That we needed to fill. And then also when I was running a digital marketing agency and you’re doing search engine optimization, you’re building websites and you’re doing PPC campaigns and clients, they seem to never be happy because when you’re growing in SEO and the traffic’s growing, they’re happy, but when you hit the top and you can’t go any higher and it plateaus, they start asking questions like am I still getting value?

And I [00:03:00] got, our agency got fired a couple of times when we were delivering maximum value. And you said like, how does that make sense? If you’re being measured on, search engine rankings and traffic and you hit the top and they’ve got addicted to the growth rate, you get fired because they expecting the growth rate.

What they don’t realize is the amount of leads you generating. That’s the real value. So I switched to measuring on leads before we created what converts and. What it helped, it really helped determine what success looked like with the client. So when we sat in a meeting, we had a sales presentation, they said how many blog posts are you going to do?

How many keywords are you going to target from a website? I said, we don’t do any of that, or we do that, but we don’t measure ourselves in that. All you’re going to measure me on is how many qualified leads I bring you. And they’re like, Oh, okay. And so you go ahead and you’ve got a great measure, and then once you get the lead, the great thing about a lead is it’s the last step before a [00:04:00] sale.

And your client understands this. They know, okay, every lead is an opportunity to make a sale. They see value in that. They understand it. If you tell them like we. Reduce the bounce rate. They’re like, that means it means nothing to them. Or if you tell them we’ve got a hundred thousand impressions, he’s how many dollars is that worth?

But now if you measure it in leads, they like, and you tell them we got these leads and this turns into a sale. You can put a dollar value on it. And it’s easy to represent your marketing value. So after that, we never got fired. At the stage of week, we delivering, maximum marketing value, and once you can clearly show them like, Hey, we delivered these, they can determine the value from that.

The arguments go away easier said than done though, as you found out. 

Patrick Carver: Sure. And a point I also want to make too, is, we’re going to probably geek out a little bit about just the software and the, how it works and and why it’s valuable from kind of error.

Vantage point as an agency. But [00:05:00] the thing that I stress especially with your product, cause we use it, for all of our clients is that it’s the value is 50, 50, it helps us, but it really is helping the attorney or the business owner. Themselves because right now and I think I, I run into this a lot when we’re talking with potential clients is that, there’s just a high level of distrust with marketing agencies.

They’ve been, a lot of our clients have been sold a fantastic dream, of what, what’s going to happen. And they’ve been let down and maybe that’s happened consistently. And I think a core problem with that. Is related to the fact that there’s just not much transparency on the backend, there’s no accountability because people are, showing big graphs of impressions and things like that.

And so maybe you could just speak a little bit to the, from the vantage point of a business owner, why is this so essential and why would you want to make sure you’re, you have this level of clarity, no [00:06:00] matter what marketing agency you use. 

Michael Cooney: Yeah, I think, our mission statement that we have is to prove and grow your marketing ROI.

So the first step is you have to prove that delivering value for the money you’re getting. And so I see it the same way. If you go take a job somewhere and if you’re an employee, you’re getting paid a salary. You have to Give their company a certain amount of value to stay employed. It’s the same thing with a relationship with an agency and a client, you’ve got to give them enough value to warrant paying you what they pay you.

And I’ve got a story, so I’m an agency owner. I’m still an agency owner, even though 98 percent of my time is running what converts. And the reason I can do that is I cherry picked five clients I’ve worked with for many years. And what’s happened is we built a marketing engine. Based on search engine optimization and PPC and that engine is running well.

And that engine, they pay us to keep the engine running. So many months. I [00:07:00] spend less than an hour on this client, but because over the years we built this trust and that trust has been built on us providing them value for what they pay us. So even though I’m not spending a lot of time and what they pay me per hour is many thousands of dollars, essentially.

They’re getting a lot more value. They’re actually getting 27 times the value that they pay me. So that’s the important thing. That’s when you’re getting back to return on investment. Is it worth the money? So if your agency and your fees and your value is based on how many hours it takes you to do something, it’s very difficult to grow and it’s very difficult to grow continually long term.

But if you can get the client to understand the value that you’re delivering It just changes the game for the agency. And can I share one more story? Of course. Yeah. So early in my days in my agency careers, I’ve got a a client and it’s a true story. He was a sales person for an industrial [00:08:00] manufacturer.

And he said, Hey, Michael, my company doesn’t want to set up a website. So I’d like to do it. So this was back in 2002. So he set it up and we did the SEO. He instructed me to set it up. I set up the website. I got the search engine optimization going. We were being charged. We are being paid by the hour.

I was making 5, 000 a month for this one client. And it was good work, a good money, an hourly rate. Only to find out after the year, his commission, because the sales went through the company, his commission was 500, 000. That all came through the marketing website that I set up. I got paid 60, 000. That’s his deal. I’m not begrudging that, but when you look back over your career and you realize and I’ve looked at back at what this individual has earned and he’s gone on to do many different things and he’s earned about a hundred million dollars. Wow. But the fee, the marketing company that we got over that time is probably a million dollars.

And so you just see that there is value there. And when you [00:09:00] understand the value and you capture it correctly, you find that agencies aren’t getting pressured. They aren’t always, when you are doing a good job, you should share in the reward of the value you’re delivering, not always being squeezed to the, the smallest margin.

I hope that didn’t come across the wrong way, but it’s I’ve had this mission that I think agents, many agencies that are doing great work aren’t being paid their full value, or even a portion of their value. They’re getting underpaid essentially. 

Patrick Carver: Yeah no arguments with that here, but no, I think it’s a good point.

And where I would add on to that as well is, it’s just I see so much frustration and time wasted on from the client side from the attorney, and they’re just constantly, wondering. If it’s working and trying to assess, this world of digital marketing, where they’re not really set up to do that.

There are some, some attorneys and law firms who are, very business savvy and maybe have [00:10:00] a tech background or different things like that, but for the most part, it’s really like a black box. And you’re really relying on gut level instincts. And, really the bank account is, was what I hear most consistently that if there’s money in the bank account and it feels like we’re getting clients, then, mark, okay, marketing’s working or on the opposite end it’s not working.

And. So I, I pitch it as a way why it’s so important to have this attribution because it just makes things so much easier for you as a business owner, as a law firm owner, to not spend your time on wondering and, not being able to control the situation.

It gives you just, a lot more clarity about how to make those decisions and reward people where, you know, where value is coming from maybe you, could you share a little bit about how the software actually works? Because I think, we’re talking about it and we obviously, have a background with, working with the product and but if a lawyer.

Comes to you [00:11:00] or us and, and wants to incorporate what converts, like what, what is actually happening there to where on the back end, we get a nice list of. People who have contacted the law firm, whether that’s a call and email or a form or a chat, what, what’s actually happening there.

And, and how does that work? 

Michael Cooney: It’s magic. Perfect. Yeah, it goes into a black box and reports come out there. I’m trying to decide, you’re like, how deep in the weeds do I go, but it’s fairly simple. When somebody comes from a website, there’s first party cookie data and there’s this third party cookie data.

I just want to make that clear. All the data we get is from the last website the visitor was from. So if you’re a stranger and you’re saying, Hey, I need a lawyer, you go to Google and you [00:12:00] search for a lawyer and it’s going to show you ads at the top, which is Google paid ads, and it’s going to show you organic results below the paid ads.

So if you click on one of those ads. And you come through to the lawyer’s website. You’re now, you’ve gone from being a stranger to being a visitor on a site. Okay. So when you land on the site, what happens is information on that click that you clicked on the ad. We store that in a cookie, which is just a text file in your browser.

So we know where you came from. We know what keyword you use. We know what page you landed on. And we also swap out the telephone number on the website. We have a script that does it on your client’s website. So we also know what telephone number you’re seeing. So then if you don’t make any phone call, we don’t capture any data and you go away.

Okay. Now, let’s say you go and you do another search in Google, you come back and this time you click on the organic search result and you come through. We know you came from an organic result because of browser referrer data. It’s difficult to [00:13:00] say that, but we know you came from Google organic. We know page you landed on, but.

Google organic, you don’t get keyword data now because of the cookie data, we’ve got two attribution points that you came from and now you make a phone call. Now you will have seen the same phone call. Each time we download that marketing data. So we call that marketing data on basically what marketing brought you to the website.

We collect it as marketing data, right? And then the conversion action is the phone call. We take those two, we tie them together and we store it as a record. In our database. So we combine the conversion action and that conversion action normally has who you are. It knows your telephone number, your caller ID, things like that.

The same thing if you filled in a web form, we capture that as well. We know the full contents of the web form. We append that to your marketing data and we store that in our platform. So when you come to our website and you say, Oh who filled in this form? We show you who they are. They’ll tell you what they wanted.

I’m looking for a lawyer [00:14:00] for. A personal injury claim or something, and then we’ll say this person, they searched personal injury claim in Google ads, they clicked on the ad, they came to your website on this date, and then they filled in the form on this date. Does that answer?

Is that a bit? Yeah, for 

Patrick Carver: sure. I think, lawyers don’t need to necessarily get into the weeds of how the sausage is made, right? But I think it’s good to understand just from a conceptual level that you know what you guys are doing and what, what we’re able to get value from and then pass that along to the customer is our, or our client is just, you’re able to interpret.

Where the, basically the footprints, of where that person is coming from. And without that, it’s, it’s a total black box without that information. It’s it really just doesn’t, it can’t provide you with actionable, good insights about your marketing to know whether it’s working or not.

And that, we used to use our evolution. We used to use Google tag manager and we would send a report every month and it would say, Hey, look. Here’s [00:15:00] your total number of calls, your total number of emails and other stuff. And for a lot of our clients, they get that report and they’re like, okay, great.

This is really good. Business has been going up. Cool. Everything is working out. But then we’re, we talk with some other clients and we’re like, Hey, your numbers are off the charts, right? You’re getting tons and tons of calls and they say it’s a business isn’t really that good.

And with what converse, we’re able to actually then dig in deeper and see, okay, they’re getting a lot of calls, but they’re getting a lot of calls from this. Weird page that we, you know, we, they created 10 years ago. And for some reason it’s just caught wildfire on, with Google organic or something.

And so it gets you not only the kind of the metadata, but really The specifics, and I think that’s the big difference between, what this is versus just basic Google analytics tracking or kind of any other idea of tracking. This really, for me, [00:16:00] brings it at full circle. 

Michael Cooney: Yeah. And that’s, you should be on my sales team.

You did a really good job explaining that when we capture that data, that’s first step. And. I wouldn’t say that capturing that data is revolutionary. That’s not the differentiator of what converts. It’s when we capture the data is how we organize it. Because all the data is like having a spreadsheet that was built for lead management.

If you ask it any question, if you say, I only want to see Leads from this campaign. You can do that in one second. The other thing is we then have great reporting. So now it’s show me all the leads from this page, like the immigration law page. Show me all the leads from that. And then it says, okay you got 10 leads from there.

And it’s show me which ones were qualified. And if you’ve qualified it, we’ll show you that. And then it’s can I see them? And it’s absolutely one click. And it says, here are the five qualified leads that came from the immigration law page. Yeah. And we can do that for keywords.

We can do it by campaign or even source and medium. So that’s the great thing. And when you compare it to Google [00:17:00] analytics, because when we started Word Converts, we’d tell people that we do lead tracking and they’d say we use Google analytics for that. And I used to use Google Analytics religiously when I was running an agency.

The problem comes is when you go to your clients and you say, Hey, I’ve got a hundred leads from this campaign. And they say how many of them were good? Google Analytics can’t answer that. And how much were those leads worth? I don’t know. And then they can ask you how many of those leads were existing customers and you’re like, I don’t know.

So with what converts, you can answer all that, in a couple of clicks. 

Patrick Carver: Yeah, for sure. And I’m going to, along with this interview, I’m going to put. Some material up, with what kind of the inside looks like, to bring it to life on the page, but I’ll share a success story that we’ve had with the system.

Yeah. And it’s, it’s huge for us. And, we have a client in particular where. They’ve been working with us for about, four years. So it’s a good relationship. They’re very savvy. They do. They’re very aggressive with their marketing. And so we were having a [00:18:00] conversation one time and, and I was looking at, potentially trying to upsell them cause I was seeing, in Google analytics and all that Oh, wow.

We’re increasing their organic traffic, our SEO. Campaigns seem to be working really great. And so I asked them and I said it’s pretty clear seo is, really growing your business and they go. Oh, no, we think that’s That’s this and they would give us the name of the chat bot that they were using on their website We think oh no, it’s because of this.

This chat bot and and that struck me as odd because, a chat bot in itself is not going to, it’s not advertising. It’s not SEO. And so even somebody who was relatively astute, with marketing and kind of understanding where leads were coming from, they were miss incorrectly attributing hundreds and hundreds of leads.

month as for this chat bot, as opposed to the underlying mechanism that was bringing them to the website. And so as soon as we were able to show that and [00:19:00] add what converts and. Really show that, that line, from here’s this person, they, here’s their name, their phone number. Yes.

They use a chat bot, but before that they came through SEO and then connect that to the financial end of it when they became an actual client. And we figured out that we’d been responsible for it on the low end over a nine X. Return on the year. And we’re talking about half a million dollars in, revenue that was previously not being attributed to us and our work.

And so it just fundamentally changed the relationship with the client. It, it gives us a much better platform to advocate for ourselves. And then the client knows too, because they’re getting a million different offers all the time. And. They don’t have a great way to necessarily discern which ones are snake oil and which ones are actually, good strategies.

And so it just was, it was a real light bulb moment for us. And so we, that’s why I’m, I’m, [00:20:00] strong supporter of the product. And and maybe you could chat a little bit about, I think the other options out there and maybe what.

What your, how you differentiate from something like call rail, we had come over from high level, we were using it, but had big problems with the accuracy of the data, I think a lot of lawyers are on call rail. It’s for sure. And there’s some unique advantages I think that you guys have that I talked about a little bit with like chat and different things.

And maybe you can share just a little bit about, how what’s different between you and other players in the market. 

Michael Cooney: Yeah. There’s quite a few differentiators. And the interesting thing is we get compared in the call tracking space where call tracking just grew for A period, from 2011 till now, it’s just been on high growth.

So we’ve been incorporating that in that bucket. So call rail is call tracking where we see what converts as a lead tracking platform, and we say platform because tracking the data, [00:21:00] we see call tracking as a data source. That’s a data source of, like what marketing made my phone ring, who the person is, what they wanted and all that’s just the source of the data we’ve spent a lot of time with our platform on the data structure underneath and not to get too much in the weeds, but that allows us to put calls, forms, chats, even e commerce transactions side by side in the data.

It doesn’t sound like a big thing. It’s huge. If you’re looking at data with hundreds of leads and. your leads are siloed, you can’t tie things together easily. You can’t see insights. So that’s one of the things it’s our lead manager that we call it. It’s just very robust, very flexible. You can look at any data set.

Like we have 70 standard data points. You can put that in a spreadsheet, in seconds, you can save different views. So what I’m saying is the data management tools are pretty extensive in what converts, which you’re not going to find in other call tracking providers. 

Patrick Carver: Yeah. 

Michael Cooney: The other thing we have, sorry, go ahead.

Patrick Carver: [00:22:00] No, sorry. I was just going to, add that, I think you’re glossing over it because I’m sure, you talk about it day in and day out, but Just the ability to bring in leads from a chat bot leads from calls, leads from a website form is actually a really big lift and one of the big problems that we hear from attorneys is that, so much of their time is spent just in their email, sifting through all of the leads that come in and then trying to find out where those people came from.

And in the, at the end of the month, if you were to ask them what’s working best for you, there’s just no way they can get to that because you’re having to get exports from three or four or even more different systems, depending on if you’re doing ads, Facebook ads, and all this stuff.

And that was really the number one point for us of why we, came was because it was like, instead of. Us manually going to get a list from the form, calls from [00:23:00] CallRail something else from the chatbot service. It was all in one single place. And so on the back end, I think it’s just, it saves the law firm so much time trying to go and reconcile that on a monthly basis.

Sorry, go ahead. 

Michael Cooney: Thank you for that. Cause yeah, I’ve spent a lot of time trying to tell people that, but until they’ve experienced it, it doesn’t seem like a big deal, but once you felt that pain and you see how we’ve sold it, it’s wow, where have you been all my life? 

But yeah, that’s what the other differentiator we have is a complete reporting platform, but it’s a lead it’s based on leads and you can report on any data we have.

So if you want to group data by landing page or by lead page or lead page and ad or keyword and landing page, or, just whatever you want to, if you want to see a. But on a timeline, show me my Google ads leads over a year. We can show you that, as they come through, I use it many times to see these dropped from Google ads and show me on a [00:24:00] timeline and it’ll show you, okay, they dropped here.

And then you can look at it and and sometimes organic drops and you’re like you put the, your top landing pages on a timeline and you can see which one drops. And then you know where your problem is. Our reporting is super powerful. And then lastly, we have something called lead intelligence, which can, you hear conversational intelligence, which is included in our lead intelligence.

So conversational intelligence, it takes a transcript of a phone call. And it looks for keywords in there and the intent of the call to give you insights. So we have that, but we also combine it with the landing page, the keyword, the campaign other 70 different data metrics, and you can set up rules.

So what you can do is you can score leads automatically. You can auto qualify them. You can auto categorize them. So if you let land on the immigration page, We categorize it as an immigration lead, and if your typical immigration lead, the average cost is 2, [00:25:00] 000. You can now automate the value of those leads.

Now I’m not saying you do it, but a lot of our agencies with automated bidding, that’s getting smarter with Google. We now set up rules that we’re sending back the conversion. The value of the lead for different campaigns. So we’re saying for this campaign, for this value of the lead, send it back. Hey, Google, we want more of these and it can be done in seconds.

And so with that power, what’s happening now is you see an improvement in your biddings. Okay. That’s one example. Yeah, 

Patrick Carver: no, that makes sense. And it, attorneys will appreciate it because we, we’ll often hear that. We just want more of the good leads, right?

And we just want, we just want the cases that, that are going to be, coming after the, the sale price that we want as attorneys. And and that’s like a concrete way of you being able to do that. And a value add that the software has, because we can then go look at a list of 50 [00:26:00] different cases or calls and say.

These five all had the highest value and then send that back to Google. They’re going to use their machine learning to basically try and find more of those high value calls. And so it’s, it totally matches with what we’re after. And, just in terms of getting this, it’s.

surprisingly, it’s not, I don’t think like an enormous lift for for law firms, even if you’re not super technical, the installation process is not not extraordinary. And then the, what I was going to ask about is how well does the system play with other softwares like CRMs, because, A lot of our clients are using a case management software.

Some use systems like an intake system that then goes into case management. And you can actually pipe that data coming in on the front end into your, into a lot of CRMs and intake systems so that, the value of that is you’re, again, you’re [00:27:00] consolidating data. It’s not all kept in these different silos, and so your team doesn’t have to spend as much time filling out that information because it’s coming directly from what converts, if I understand correctly.

Michael Cooney: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. We love CRMs and we love integrating with CRMs and we built an API that’s very robust. So API, it’s a method that allows you to connect to other software. Normally when we can’t integrate with a platform is because they don’t support it. It’s not because Whatconverse doesn’t support it.

So we have three main methods that we use for integrating with software in very flexible ways. The API is the most, you need a developer to do that. Then we have webhooks where it’s low code kind of integration. And then we also have Zapier. Which, they integrate, they create bridges to over 2000 different software apps.

And then you don’t need to know any code. You just got to say, okay, when a new lead comes in, I want it to [00:28:00] go to the CRM. So yeah, it’s very easy to do that. And we love doing that, but we also love. bringing data from the CRM back to what converts. And the reason we do that, so what converts is built for marketers.

That’s our whole viewpoint. A CRM is a sales tool. So we don’t, some call tracking companies, they act as a data conduit. So they take call tracking leads and they just pass it all over to the CRM. The problem with that as a marketer, you need data in your side. CRMs weren’t built for marketers, they’re built for sales.

So we’ve built our tool that If we get a little bit of value data from the CRM, it really enhances your marketing insights. So when it comes back to the high value leads like we get data or sales data into what converts, and then you just run a report in two seconds. And we’ll tell you what keyword, generated the most value.

What landing page, what source and medium. [00:29:00] And then what I’ll do as well, many times, like when I’m looking for optimization ideas as a marketer, and I continue to do this for what converts ourselves. I just look back over the last 12 months and say, give me a list of the keywords that generated the most value.

I look at that and I’m like, okay, we’re going to double down on what works. Anyway you can keep me going, but yeah, that’s one of the, we love integrating, CRMs are one of the biggest integrations reporting software like agency analytics. Yeah. Integrate with guys like that, Looker Studio, things like that as well.

Patrick Carver: Yeah. Yeah. And I think my point, for bringing that up specifically, it’s just that, it’s, I want to bring down the concept back to earth a little bit. So just that it’s manageable for, for the average person to wrap their head around and how they might, go about adding it to their, to, to their law firm.

And I think, if you aren’t technically inclined. It’s a great thing to ask your marketing agency to provide because, they’re we’re, we feel like a natural fit [00:30:00] to be able to install that because we have, experience with software and, can do all that.

But I think there’s, a case to be made for. Attorneys putting more pressure on marketers to, to try and get that and the, I think the last, one of the last questions I have is just what do you say to folks who are maybe skeptical about doing this. And one of the, the things that we’ve heard, as far as pushback from tracking in general, is that.

They don’t want to give up their, regular phone number, and they’re afraid that people seeing that won’t, necessarily think it’s them, but I view marketing attribution is such a must have as opposed to a nice to have. And is the value of it should that trump any argument about or any concern with that, or do you have anything, to, just to share from your experience of, does that actually cost people business? Is it a big problem or is it not really a big problem? 

Michael Cooney: Yeah. In the early days, I used to get that question a lot and we [00:31:00] hardly get it anymore.

And then when we do get it, or when I did get it in the past, I’d say, look. What I recommend, if you’re really worried about this, we’ll only swap out the telephone number on your website. If it comes from, let’s say Google ads. So with our software, you can say, okay, I only want to swap out the telephone number when it comes from Google ads.

And then what you find is they get those leads. They see the data and they’re like, Oh, okay. So that’s Google ads. Could we also include it for if they came from Google organic? And you said, absolutely. So you can include that as well. And then before you know it, they’re like, okay, yeah, let’s, we just want everything.

Which I recommend. And so that kind of disarms them so that they normally say, okay, so it’s only gonna, they’re only gonna see a different telephone number if it came from an actual ad and we’d say, yep. And they’re like, okay, I can deal with that. That’s a small step. And then when you’re also talking about the ease of use of putting this in, you’re right it’s.

It’s very simple to get going and a lot of people like to talk about integrations and all the [00:32:00] fancy things. My biggest recommendation is just take a tracking script. So you create a With an account, you get a tracking code. If it’s a WordPress website, it’s just a copy and paste to get it going. But just start tracking the data and then look at the data.

And then once you’re looking at the data and you’re seeing it and it’s, you’re not even paying anything, it’s a 14 day free trial and you’ve probably invested like 10 minutes to get it going. Yeah. You see the data and then you’re like, Oh wow, this is what they’re talking about. And then once you get in the data, you’re saying this is valuable, I could do this, then you know what data you have.

And then, so don’t worry about all the fancy stuff until you’re collecting some data. 

Patrick Carver: Makes sense. Cool. I really appreciate your time. I think this was awesome conversation. And like I said we’re pretty big homers. We’re big fans of the software and, and just it just really just has to do with the, it makes our lives easier and it syncs up with our mission of making sure attorneys get value with their marketing.

And really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us. 

Michael Cooney: Thank you so much. Thanks for having [00:33:00] me on. Cool.

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