On The Optimized Law Firm Podcast, we chat with legal pros who can help you run a more profitable and enjoyable business.
In this episode of the Optimized Law Firm podcast, we’re interviewing Joseph Scrofano from Scrofano Law PC about the best ways of improving your intake process. Tune in for a detailed conversation full of insight on “How to Improve Your Intake Process.”
What’s in This Episode?
- The Ideal Intake Process
- Important Aspects to Consider for Running a Successful Law Firm
- Where to Begin to Improve your Own System
Episode 11 |How to Improve Your Intake Process with Joseph Scrofano
Patrick:
All right. I’ll just dig in. Hey, it’s Patrick Carver with the Optimized Law Firm podcast. Thank you for joining us and want to welcome you to another episode. We like to provide law firms with actionable tips on how they can run a more profitable and enjoyable business. In this episode, we are going to be talking about one of the most important topics when it comes to growing your firm, the intake process. By improving the process, law firms can increase their conversion rate and the ROI that they’re getting from marketing while also improving customer satisfaction. In this podcast, we only host illustrious guests, and I’m pleased to be joined today by Joseph Scrofano. Joe is a client and a premier criminal attorney in the DC area who has been consistently recognized by his colleagues and clients in outlets like Super Lawyers, Avo, and more. Additionally, he’s the driving force behind a very successful for attorney firm and has been consistently growing that to really become a force in the DC area. Welcome and thank you so much for taking some time to chat intake with me.
Joseph:
Yeah, Patrick, thanks for having me. You said illustrious lawyer. I was looking around trying to see who you were talking about. Then a second, correct, we’re actually up to six lawyers now. So we have two in Maryland and four in the DC office. But yeah, I’m happy to be here. Glad to talk to you. Intake is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. So I’m glad to share whatever knowledge I can for your guests.
Patrick:
Excellent. We really appreciate it. First question I have, how did you get the name Scruppt Justice?
Joseph:
When I first started practicing, I did indigent defense and I was on something called the Criminal Justice Act Panel. I did it around 2010 when the legal market was still in shambles from the 2008 collapse. I didn’t have a lot of experience when I started. I’d done a clerkship in DC Superior Court. And so the way I overcompensated for my lack of experience was to just overwork every single case possible. I was setting cases for trial that was like driving with suspended license, doing trials on possession of open container of alcohol. And I developed a very aggressive style of criminal defense that worked for me, which was to be, frankly, like the biggest pain in the ass you could possibly be to a prosecutor in the hopes that they will either give you a deal that your client could live with and was fair in the situation, or that they might make some mistake in the process and you’d be able to get it dismissed or ultimately go to trial. So I did some more I did some pretty aggressive things when I was first starting out. I filed a motion for contempt against a prosecutor because it appeared in my view they were disobeying a court order.
Joseph:
I subpoenaed a prosecutor at another point in time when I thought he had made himself a witness in the case. When I got my first office space, I was in this building across the street from DC Superior Court where there are a lot of older, more experienced lawyers in the building. They took to calling me scrupph justice. I like to think that it was in an endearing way, although it could have been making fun of me, but I embraced it and went with it.
Patrick:
Well, it seems to have been very useful in the development of your firm and in your ability to get results for clients. Tell me… Here, we got a pause for a second. Yeah. There we go. Tell us about how your practice has grown since you started from being scuffed justice and solo figuring it out.
Joseph:
Yeah, sure. I did indigent defense for a number of years. And during that time, I was really focused on professional development. I didn’t do any marketing. Like I said, I was trying to try as many cases as possible and get as much experience as possible. I also didn’t really feel comfortable marketing at that time based on my lack of experience because it’s like, okay, pay me a bunch of money. I’ve never tried a case before. After a few years of trying cases and litigating a couple of hundred cases in Superior Court and doing… I did the trial lawyers college in Wyoming, which is like a three week program with criminal defense lawyers and plaintiff lawyers across the country. I started marketing. The first thing I had was a blog website. This is like 2013, 2014. I would think about what questions would my target client have and want to know, and what would they be googling? If I was arrested for a DUI, what are the questions that I would have that I would Google? I would try to write these informative blog posts to speak to those answers, and it was pretty successful. I started getting a good amount of private business from that.
Joseph:
Ultimately, I gave up the indigent defense. I got off the CVA panel. Then in 2016, where I had some real explosive growth was two other solar practitioners joined my firm and wrapped their practice into Scrofano Law. I think from 15 to 16, I basically tripled or quadrupled the gross revenue of the firm and really was able to focus a lot more on marketing now that I was able to hire an admin person and have other lawyers in the firm who were also generating revenue and work in the cases. And so things went from there. Started with blogging, building up my own private practice, independent from the court appointed stuff, and then really getting some really effective, good criminal defense lawyers who joined the firm, and having strengthened numbers in that way. We ultimately ended up in 2020 hiring an attorney to open up our Maryland practice. Then we hired two associates in the last year and a half, one for Maryland, one for DC.
Patrick:
That’s great. Can you give us a baseline definition of what goes into the intake process or how you would summarize it?
Joseph:
Sure. So intake is first and foremost assessing whether a lead that comes in is qualified or not. Most small law firms and probably a lot of folks in your audience do a lot of SEO, do Google ad words. So you’re going to end up getting a lot of calls from the internet. And so the first thing the intake process has to do is weed through and make sure, okay, is this person calling someone we can help? Is this person calling someone? Is this person calling someone who we can help and is in the right geography? If somebody calls my firm and says, hey, I need a family lawyer, then it’s not a qualified lead. It’s intake’s responsibility to weed them out. If someone calls and says, I need a criminal defense lawyer in Florida, obviously that’s not a qualified lead either. The second component is getting the actual qualified leads scheduled for consultation for the right attorney and then following up through the process and what we call in my firm and a lot of firms call who use like Cleo Grow and stuff like that, we call it the pipeline. So it’s like getting the right qualified leads into the pipeline, tracking them throughout the process and hoping to increase the likelihood that the firm will convert the clients in the end.
Patrick:
Perfect. Why do you feel like this is such an important part of your day to day operations and running a successful law firm?
Joseph:
Sure. I can tell you, in 2017, we hired what we call a client intake specialist. And this is a person whose sole job is dedicated to chasing leads throughout the pipeline. And so one of the biggest advantages of having someone who’s dedicated to managing the pipeline, chasing leads, getting consult scheduled, making sure they show up is that you can get a lot more bang for your buck in the marketing dollars that you spend. So let’s say you’re converting 10 % of all qualified leads that come in. If you get 100 qualified leads, you’re going to get 10 new clients. Well, there’s only a couple of different ways you can increase the amount of clients that you actually convert. You could get more leads. So let’s say now you got 200 leads, so you got 20 clients the next month. Well, you’re probably going to have to spend money in marketing to get that extra 100 leads in order to double your clients. Well, if instead of getting more leads, you’re able to double your conversion rate and instead convert 20 % of the hundred leads, you can actually double the number of cases you’re bringing in in a month or increase the number of cases you’re bringing in a month without having to spend additional marketing dollars.
Joseph:
And so your marketing ROI is going to be much higher if you have good systems in place in the intake process.
Patrick:
It’s absolutely true. And something that we probably don’t talk about enough as a marketing agency is trying to help with some of that process because we can get you a million leads. But if you’re not following up with them, you don’t have that process in place, you’re essentially throwing money down the tube. We’ve lost clients because we’re providing high quality leads and they simply don’t have the system or processes in place to actually take advantage of them. At the end of the day, it’s, Well, you’re not getting us any revenue. I wanted to have you on in particular because I know this is a really important issue for your firm and I can see it working with what we’re sending over.
Joseph:
Yeah, I mean, it’s a great point. When I first started digging into this issue, I think I read one of these, it was like one of the CIO annual reports that they put out or something like that. And I think it was, I’m probably going to butcher this, but it was something crazy. The average small law firm converts 10 % of like 15 % of all qualified leads that come in. And those are just a staggering low numbers. Again, if you’re converting 15 % and you get 100 leads, that’s 15 percent of the clients. My firm, we convert on average 35 % to 45 % of leads that come in to actual clients that we convert. So if we have 100 qualified leads come in, we’re going to have anywhere from 35 % to 45 % new clients based on that. And I think one of the biggest mistakes that a lot of law firms make is they have the attorney or one of the attorneys handling the phone calls. This was one of the first things I learned about when I was digging into this issue is like, do not have lawyers answer the phone and be responsible for the follow up for a potential lead that comes in.
Joseph:
And since I had been a solo practitioner in my early years when I first started, it totally resonated with me because I used to at the very beginning, I had a personal cell phone and a work cell phone, and that was like my whole system. So anybody at any time could call me off the Internet. It would go directly to me. And well, somebody might call while I’m in court. And I would get the message and I would tell myself, okay, I’m going to call this back. This is a DUI lead. But then I would be getting out of court and another client would call and I’d be jumping on some other emergency and I’d have a million other things to do. And then by the time I got back to calling, the person already hired a lawyer, or I may have never got back to calling the individual. And I think that’s what happens when a solo or even a law firm that has multiple attorneys, when they’re having the attorneys do the intake process and be responsible for these leads, they are losing a ton of leads. I know for a fact because I lived through it and I saw the drastic difference that it made.
Joseph:
Once first, I had someone like a non attorney answering the phone and then ultimately had someone who entire position in the law firm is dedicated to intake, managing the pipeline, getting consultation scheduled, making sure the consult show up, following up with them after the attorneys do the consultation, and just generally tracking all this stuff.
Patrick:
There’s two points in there that I think are really important. The first is that if you can increase your conversion rate just a little bit, it makes all of your other numbers work so much better together. Your cost per acquisition for a new client goes down substantially, your profitability goes up. You then get into this mode, I think, too, where you can start to be more selective as well because you’re generating more demand on the same number of leads, basically. You can start to raise your prices a little bit. You start to be more picky with your cases. The other aspect, I think, of that is I think a lot of attorneys have maybe a perception that they need to be on the phone converting those people. Or maybe it may be also be, I think there’s a reluctance there that it’s just hard to train people as well in general. I think there’s certain firms that steer away from adding people to their team because they’ve had a bad experience or things like that. And it’s absolutely going to happen where you’re going to find somebody who’s not a great fit. But I think what you’ve probably seen is that once you find that person, it just makes such a world of difference when their only goal is, and they’re motivated, probably financially, around chasing those people down, talking to them, converting them.
Patrick:
Because as an attorney, like you said, even if you were the most punctual on top of it type of person, you have physical blocks in your calendar where you cannot return a call because you’re in court. I think I’m guessing that you felt this during the progression of your firm since you started that now there’s much more urgency around contacting, getting back to those people as soon as possible because there’s no shortage of choices, costs for advertising in the criminal space have continuously gone up, so people are more aggressively courting that new business. You can’t wait a day to get back to those people. I think that’s a real advantage of having a system like the way you’ve got it set up.
Joseph:
I think you’ve hit on a lot of key points and have a lot of valuable insight there. A couple of things. One, if you’re not answering the phone… It’s not just on the business side of things. It’s also on the practice side of things. If you’re answering phone calls all day, you’re not doing good legal work for your clients. If you’re working on a motion and you’re just allowing your phone to ring and answer that, you’re getting distracted. You’re basically not doing two things well. You’re not doing intake well and you’re not doing your legal work well. The other thing you mentioned, sometimes people have had bad experiences training. I think also sometimes, and I know this because I lived it, lawyers are afraid somewhat to invest in their business. They think about, okay, if I hire this receptionist or this client intake person, it’s going to cost this much in salary and benefits, etc. And what I think we’re a good case study for is it absolutely more than pays for itself because, again, you’re converting more clients, you’re doing better legal work for your existing clients because this is a whole piece of the firm that’s more or less off your plate that you really just need to supervise as opposed to actually work in.
Joseph:
And you’re also going to get more value for the money that you’re spending on marketing services. So if you’re doing Google ad campaigns or you’re spending thousands of dollars a month on organic SEO and whatnot, why not have a system in place to be able to capture as much of that that comes your way? Because if you’re not, you’re basically leaving money on the table and you’re letting your… And there’s people out there that you can help that your firm is not helping, that you’re leaving to another firm or one of your competitors to hit. Again, having a good intake process more than pays for itself. It’s worth the investment. It’s worth the investment in terms of quality of life. It’s worth the investment in terms of doing better legal work for your clients. It’s worth the investment in getting more, like I said before, more bang for your buck in the marketing dollars that you are spending.
Patrick:
So hiring a person, obviously a great investment. What other things would you incorporate in an ideal intake system? What does that process look like for you guys? What would you feel like is the best way to do it across a variety of law firms?
Joseph:
Sure. You know, number one, you need to measure what you’re doing. There’s a saying we pay attention to what we measure. So if your phone is ringing all the time and you’re just going off of, Oh, I feel like the phone is ringing a lot, or I feel like the phone’s not ringing a lot. You’re really not in a position to make the decisions about your business and about your firm and about your processes. So the first thing you need to start doing when you get someone in the position is have them start tracking what’s coming in. And there are a lot of different software systems that allow you to do that. When I first started and had someone answering the phone who was a non attorney, but it was like an office manager type who was basically an admin who was doing all of our admin stuff for us, we would have her write in a Google Sheet. Every call that came in, was it a qualified lead? What was the nature of the call? Name, last name, etc. And then at least we had some mechanism, although it was tedious and manual, that we would go in and count and say, Okay, we’re getting 25 qualified leads a month on average, or whatever it is.
Joseph:
And there’s some measurement and accountability for what’s happening with the calls. What was a real game changer for us was in 2017, we started using what was then called Lexicata. It’s now C leo grow, C leo bought it. And there’s that. There’s other systems, I think my case and some of these others that do this type of stuff as well. But it basically gives you a software system to track what’s coming in. And it’s nice because it divides up the pipeline into the most important area. So the first one is what we call the catch the lead. So somebody could call your firm and maybe the call gets missed, or somebody could do a chat on your website or a direct contact form, and then when your client intake goes to call them, they don’t answer the phone. Well, okay, they just sent this message. I don’t know why they didn’t answer the phone. Well, let’s just forget about this. Or do we put it into some type of software system and then have a system in place to continue to follow up with that potential lead to try to get them scheduled. So in Clio growth, we’ve got the first column.
Joseph:
It’s a lead column, and the objective of that is to get them into the next column of the pipeline, which is called consult schedule. So understanding that at each level in the pipeline, there’s a particular objective is important. So when a lead comes in, the objective there is to get that scheduled. Well, then in that Consult Scheduled pipeline, we then have a series of checks and touches to make sure that that person actually shows up, sending them a confirmation email. In our confirmation email, we’ve got information about the attorney that they’re going to be speaking with, maybe a snipp from a review that a previous client left on Google. If it’s an in person consultation, we’ve got a Google Maps embed of where our office is and a picture of the front door of our office to try to take away every possible reason that they might no show. And then the next stage in the pipeline is the consult held. So once they’re in Consult Scheduled, the objective is to get them into the consult held column. And then once the attorney does the consultation, there’s a series of steps in there, and then the client intake person will send them a retainer.
Joseph:
And that’s our final stage of the pipeline, which is retainer sent. And then there’s a series of follow ups after that because especially in criminal, when you’re dealing with individuals that may have to get large amounts of money together, a lot of times they’re not just in the consult going to go, Okay, run my card. I’m ready to start. A lot of times they need to think about it. A lot of times they might need to talk to a spouse, talk to another stakeholder in their life about the decision. They may be consulting with other attorneys. And so once they’re in that retainer sent, we have a series of steps to follow up with them to find out if there’s any more questions we can answer for them, if they have any questions about the retainer agreement, about a payment plan, etc. So all of that to say, the most important steps are one tracking, making sure you’re not losing track of any of these leads because at every level of the pipeline, you could lose them. You could lose them before you schedule the consult. You could lose them by them not showing up.
Joseph:
You could lose them by forgetting to follow up with them after the consult is held and the retainer is sent. Two, having a good software system that you can track this stuff so that you’re not having somebody do it manually. And then three, having standards. We have standards in our office that says, Okay, your objective as a client intake specialist is you have to maintain an 80 % capture the lead rate. That means you’re expected to, if we get 10 leads come in, you’re expected at a minimum to get eight of those scheduled for consultation. And we also have a standard of 80 % show up rates. So out of those 80 % that we got scheduled, it’s your responsibility to make sure that 80 % of those people actually show up for the consultation. Now, after that, there’s a little bit more. After that, it’s a little bit more on the attorney to do the conversion because they’re the one holding the consultation, etc. But that at least gives some key performance indicator to give your client and intake person to be striving to and trying to meet so that you can keep your conversion numbers up.
Patrick:
You’ve laid out a ton of really useful… No, it’s great. I love it. All of that goes into it. I just want to point out, though, that I think this is probably the collection of years of trial and error. If you’re an attorney and you’ve never done anything like this, I think there are ways that you could probably start and not make it this enormous project that’s in the back of your head where you just keep putting it off and putting it off. It sounds like even just a great process would be having a spreadsheet where you can actually just jot down who you’re talking to and where they came from and maybe even chopping up your process of what you’re probably doing already, but formalize it and put it into these steps. I think that gives you the groundwork for, Okay, I need to follow this methodical process, and that will probably lead to the innovation of the checklist and the different percentages, the KPIs that you’re talking about. But I think it’s like with a lot of things like this, the biggest thing is just getting started. It seems like getting a software or something where a lot of that stuff is already baked in is probably a great way to get going, I would imagine.
Joseph:
I think you hit the nail on the head. It can sound overwhelming because this is something that has taken years to perfect. And frankly, we are always trying to make improvements to it. And our intake system may need changes now because we’re getting more leads than we were getting before. But one really good way to start is count the number of qualified leads you’re getting. Just that one number because most firms don’t pay attention to stuff like that. So okay, if you get 50 qualified leads in January and then 60 qualified leads in February and 70 qualified leads in March, that tells you your marketing is working. But in the converse, if you get 50 in January, you get 30 in February, you get 20 in March, it’s going in the wrong direction. Well, how do you know which direction your marketing is going if you’re not counting if you’re not even counting the leads. That was the first step we implemented when we had this Google Sheet that we would work off. I would count at the end of the month, I would go through the sheet of all the calls and be like, count one at a time.
Joseph:
And then I would look and monitor each month, is what I’m doing in marketing working? Are these blog posts working? Is our SEO company helping us increase leads? And so just even counting that one baseline number is a great way to get started.
Patrick:
Well, I hope the numbers are good for you for my own job security sake.
Joseph:
No, they’ve been great. I mean, here I am on your podcast.
Patrick:
That’s right. But you touched on this a little bit before, beyond revenue, what are some of the other benefits that you’ve noticed from adopting this process from the beginning?
Joseph:
Sure. A lot of criminal defense law firms work on volume, and it’s just the average case value in criminal defense is going to be much lower than in family law, for instance, or business litigation or something. A lot of criminal defense firms have to run and operate off of volume. One of the biggest complaints I think that clients have with criminal defense lawyers is people not being responsive or people not calling you back. A criminal defense lawyer may go out and get somebody’s case dismissed and do the greatest legal work ever. But if they’re not communicating with the client on a regular basis and staying in touch with them, the client really has no idea what’s going on. And they’re just freaking out, wondering and fearing what’s going to happen to them, what’s going to happen in their case. When you have a dedicated and systematized process and intake, you are demonstrating to the client right away that this is a firm that communicates with you. If by the time you get to sending the retainer, the intake person has emailed, texted, spoken to them on the phone two times, confirmed the consultation. The attorney is called at the time scheduled.
Joseph:
You’re basically conveying to the potential client, we are a responsive law firm. We’re not going to be the firm that you pay us a bunch of money and then you’re not going to hear from us for two months. I look at these intake processes and I tell this to everyone on my team, this is the first period with the potential client where we can build trust and demonstrate that we’re the type of firm that does what we say we’re going to do. So if we say, okay, we’re going to call you and follow up on Friday to see if you have any more questions, you better call on Friday. If we say the attorney is going to call you at three o’clock, you better call at three o’clock because that’s the first opportunity where you could breach their trust. If you say, okay, we’re going to follow up on Friday and you follow up on Monday, what are you communicating and demonstrating to the potential client? Well, we don’t keep our word. So you can actually send positive messages in the intake process to the potential clients to show them what type of law firm you’re going to be and how responsive you’re going to be in handling what, especially in criminal, is like for most people, just an incredibly difficult time to be in an issue to be dealing with.
Patrick:
You’re giving yourself such an intangible advantage over other attorneys that they may be looking at or other ideas of how to go about the situation because I think at least in the marketing world, I think the number one reason why clients churn is that they no longer feel like they’re important to us. I would imagine that you have seen it firsthand where you’re being compared to other firms in a shorter window and just by virtue of you showing that you care, showing that you give them that sense that like, I’ve got your back, I’m going to be the one here that’s really driving for you and going to advocate for you that you see people come your way. I imagine that’s a big pillar of how you guys have succeeded.
Joseph:
I think that’s absolutely true. The thing is you can’t be afraid to follow up. You don’t know what’s going on on the other side. One example would be, there are a lot of firms that can get very upset and frustrated if someone doesn’t show up for a consultation. Well, we have an entire… If somebody doesn’t show up, we put them into another category called no show follow up. You don’t know if that person went to the hospital. You don’t know if somebody in that person’s family passed away. You don’t know what is going on with that person in their personal life. Same thing when they contact you off the web and then you call right away and they don’t answer. Maybe they weren’t quite ready to have the conversation yet. Maybe they were reading an article or a blog posting or something like that. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t want to hear from you. That doesn’t mean that if you’re persistent and you keep following up, that you might actually get them at the right moment and then be in the right position to help them solve the problem that they have.
Patrick:
I hear this a lot when I talk with attorneys about marketing is I’ll suggest something and they’ll say, Well, I don’t like that personally, so I don’t think my client would like it. I think you’ve zeroed in on it perfectly that whether it’s when you’re following up with somebody and just in the normal business communication process, your own vantage point is often the reverse of an asset. You’re letting your own biases come into the picture and you don’t know what else is going on with that person. You have this idea that I’ve already contacted them once this week. If I’m a good attorney, If they really want to hire me, then I’ll just sit back and wait. I think people just have to get over that a little bit. There’s a balance. You’re not sending them text at three o’clock at night or something like that. I hope not. But you find that balance and learn with it. But I think you set that up and be a little bit more aggressive than maybe you think you should.
Joseph:
I think that’s so right on a number of levels. One, look, it’s ego. Lawyers have big egos, like, I’m one, I know it. And it’s like, you don’t want to feel like I’m chasing someone or my firm is chasing someone. If they want us, they’ll come to us. I mean, that’s fine. But while you have that mentality, they’re calling up your competitor who’s answering the phone directly and potentially paying way too much or not getting the quality services that your firm might get them. So I look at it like this, and I tell this to my staff as well, our follow ups are not something we’re doing to the client. It’s something we’re doing for them. We know 100 % if this client hires us, they are going to get high quality legal services, high quality customer service, lawyers who are honest with them, lawyers that are going to work hard on their behalf, lawyers that are going to fight for them and advise them to do what’s in their best interest. And I can’t say that that’s every lawyer out there. There are lots of great criminal defense lawyers out there who they could end up hiring or being represented by that aren’t us.
Joseph:
But there’s lots of ones that aren’t. And we don’t know if we’re going to get the great ones or they’re going to get the not so great ones. But the one way we can be sure that they’re going to get quality representation is if they hire us. And so this is something that’s for them. This is not something that’s even for us, really. And as far as you have to stay within some reason. So we might have a checklist in the retainer sent that says, okay, call and text this day, call two days later, call whatever time. It’s not so rigid. If the client intakes calls somebody and they say, Hey, look, I’m waiting to get paid on Friday, or I’m still thinking about this, and we tell them, okay, you don’t have to just follow the checklist like a robot. Take the information you’re getting from them, put that in the notes in the software system, and then send yourself a task or put it on your calendar to do what they ask for. So if they said, Follow up with me on Friday, and the checklist says, Call tomorrow, it’s like, Don’t do what the checklist says, do what your notes say based on your previous conversation for them.
Joseph:
So it’s not like we’re trying to stalk people or something like that. It’s just being persistent, understanding that people are busy, understanding that half the time they’re not thinking about you. They’re dealing with all the things in their lives and we’re making it and we’re trying to make it easy for them to hire us by being available and being there and following up regularly.
Patrick:
Perfect. There’s ton of value I took away in this conversation. Any chance you might be interested in doing a course at some point to help other lawyers or?
Joseph:
Yeah! Let’s talk because… I mean, look, I love criminal defense and I love practicing law. I also love the business side of things. I love getting to work on these issues. I love talking about things that have worked for us. I’ve benefited a lot. I’ve worked with consultants, I’ve worked with coaches, and I’ve benefited a lot from other people’s knowledge and experience. And so there’s a saying like, you can go out and make a million mistakes and you can learn from all those mistakes, or you can learn from others people’s mistakes and move things along faster. So any way I can be helpful to folks out there, I’m happy to do it.
Patrick:
Yeah. And what’s cool is this, I think, has relevance for basically every other type of law firm. So the principles and the processes aren’t really going to change between if it’s a family law or anything, immigration, there’s still that baseline framework. Thanks so much for sharing all this with us. I know it’s going to be helpful and really appreciate your time and everything you provided. Thanks so much. Let’s do it again soon.
Joseph:
Yeah. Thanks, Patrick, for having me. Anytime. Yeah, take care.
Patrick:
All right. Cool, man. Appreciate you.
