The Money Mindset with Margarita Eberline

May 14, 2024

Patrick Carver

Hi, I’m Patrick Carver / CEO, Constellation Marketing

I hope you enjoy listening to this podcast.
If you want my team to just do your marketing for you, click here.

Main takeaways:

  1. Understanding what drives a marketing purchase.
  2. Why having an impeccable intake process is important.
  3. Making data-driven decisions in marketing and client management is key for success.

Welcome to The Optimized Law Firm Podcast where we talk about how to run a more profitable and enjoyable law firm.

I’m your host Patrick Carver and I’m the owner of Constellation Marketing. We help hungry law firm owners transcend seven figures and gain total ROI clarity with their marketing.

I’m pleased to be joined by Margarita Eberline. She is the founder of Marketing Boss and offers coaching, teaching and training for law firms through fractional CMO services and workshops. You can also book her for your next speaking event!

Timestamps:

Marketing Challenges for Law Firms

Timestamp: 00:01:19 – 00:02:39

The Role of Data in Marketing

Timestamp: 00:02:39 – 00:11:24

Client Intake and Customer Service

Timestamp: 00:11:24 – 00:22:47

Training and Empowering Law Firm Staff

Timestamp: 00:22:47 – 00:32:09

 

Transcription:  

00:00:05:26 – 00:00:41:21

Patrick Carver

Welcome to the Optimized Law Firm podcast, where we talk about how to run a more profitable and enjoyable law firm. My name is Patrick Carver. I’ll be your host today, and I’m the owner of Constellation Marketing. We help hungry law firm owners transcend seven figures and gain total ROI clarity on their marketing. So I’m very pleased to be joined by Margarita Evelin today and she is the founder of Marketing Boss and offers coaching, teaching training law firms through her fractional chief marketing officer services and workshops.

 

00:00:41:21 – 00:00:49:23

Patrick Carver

And you can also book her for your next speaking event. So welcome to our humble podcast. How are you today?

 

00:00:49:25 – 00:00:52:18

Margarita Eberline

I’m great. Thank you so much for the warm welcome.

 

00:00:52:21 – 00:01:19:00

Patrick Carver

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we met through a client that we both share and work with. And, you know, I just thought, you know, when we started talking, we kind of shared a vision or an idea of how important not only attribution is, but really the intake process, I think, is what we really bonded over during that first call.

 

00:01:19:00 – 00:01:31:02

Patrick Carver

And so I want to get into that. But maybe you could tell us a little bit about marketing, boss, what you’re doing right now and how you help law firms.

 

00:01:31:05 – 00:01:58:07

Margarita Eberline

Awesome. Yeah. So we at Marketing Boss aim to disrupt the marketing space for law firms. There’s a flaw in the system that we aim to address and the fly is that most lawyers, they buy marketing services without really fully understanding what it is that they’re buying and how it’s supposed to work. And a lot of the times, even the best of vendors have their hands full already with executing tactics.

 

00:01:58:07 – 00:02:18:18

Margarita Eberline

And there’s a missing link in between the owner and their sales objectives and the vendor’s actual execution. And so we come into that space in the middle. So I like to describe us as like the realtor, right? That helps you buy the house. But we don’t necessarily sell you the house. There are so many good marketing companies out there and there’s also really bad ones.

 

00:02:18:18 – 00:02:39:26

Margarita Eberline

And if you’re a lawyer, you are probably not going to be able to tell the difference because they’re already good at marketing themselves. And so at Marketing Boss, we’re marketing experts, we’re data analysts and we’re coaches. And so we come in and we help guide those decisions with data and with tactics. And we don’t get involved necessarily in the execution ourselves.

 

00:02:39:27 – 00:03:02:21

Margarita Eberline

We don’t we’re not an agency, we don’t have a team or anything like that. We use whatever your existing team is. And it’s really nice because we’ve come into situations, for example, where a lawyer will say to us or our marketing team’s not working, they’re not doing a good job and we’ll get in and we’ll audit what’s happening and we’ll tell the lawyer, no, you know what, your PPC vendor is actually getting you pretty good leads.

 

00:03:02:21 – 00:03:26:13

Margarita Eberline

We audited the campaign. The keywords are on point, the ads make sense. They’re promising exactly what you do, your brand is everything’s on brand. And guess what? Your office is not picking up the phone. And when they do pick up the phone, they’re not nice or they’re an asset or they’re not qualifying properly. And so that’s, you know, one of the fun places where we can get in as the middle person, right?

 

00:03:26:15 – 00:03:42:13

Margarita Eberline

Because it’s one thing when your PC vendor says, Oh, it’s not my team, it’s your team at the front office that’s not doing what they need to do with the lead. And then the person, you know, your your admin or your secretary or your intake person is going to be like, they’re crazy. They’re just not wanting to do a good job.

 

00:03:42:13 – 00:04:03:26

Margarita Eberline

Like we’ve been into all that drama. And so then we come in and we’re like, Look, we don’t work for them. We work for you. We’re telling you we need to work at the office on qualifying and connecting with them and doing what’s called to get them off the market right With law firms, we always have two objectives when it comes to sales and intake is we want to connect in a meaningful way so that they want to work with us and establish value.

 

00:04:03:26 – 00:04:28:15

Margarita Eberline

But we also want to get them off the market because as you know, especially with PPC, you have people that are not sold on your law firm, they’re just kicking tires, they’re calling around to see how they feel. And if your person, even if it’s a non legal like they started yesterday, is warm, friendly connects, ask them the right questions and make them feel like, Hey, I called the right place, you can take them off the market.

 

00:04:28:15 – 00:04:35:11

Margarita Eberline

And even if they don’t sign up within a week or two weeks or even months, you got that lead, you got that our way.

 

00:04:35:13 – 00:05:15:00

Patrick Carver

So yeah, that’s great. And I feel like you could be the co-founder of my business idea and a long time, which is a retreat for frustrated law firm owners after they’ve been working with a bad marketing company and to try and come through there. But that’s I mean, I think, you know what? Instantly I thought you know, made so much sense is that, you know, I think there’s good marketing companies and good good law firms and just sometimes there’s, you know, not enough time of the day to really, like have those conversations about, you know, getting to the bottom of what actually is the issue.

 

00:05:15:00 – 00:05:38:12

Patrick Carver

And so it’s, you know, both sides are overworked and don’t have a limited amount of time. And so sometimes you have to you know, you’re kind of making these these like gut level decisions about, you know, oh, I don’t think it’s working or, you know, it’s not working the way I want to when it might actually be working, but it’s something else or, you know, the part that that that is not working is not what you would initially thought.

 

00:05:38:12 – 00:05:44:19

Patrick Carver

And I thought that was a really interesting part of what you’re what you’re able to do with these firms.

 

00:05:44:21 – 00:06:19:16

Margarita Eberline

Yeah. And it’s one of the reasons why coaching and and really the emotional piece I’m just going to call it what it is, is such an important part of our business model because I, I like to think I coined the phrase marketing PTSD. I have a whole video series and a blog about it. That is what law firm owners have because they’re so targeted by so many different companies, and most of them have had at least one horrible experience where they were sold on something and it just did not deliver the result.

 

00:06:19:18 – 00:06:42:02

Margarita Eberline

And they didn’t and they didn’t know any better. Or sometimes it was because they didn’t follow through with with their part. So yeah, we definitely get into that space where we can have these candid conversations one on one with the law firm owner and also their teams. When we do when we do the sales and intake workshop, we have an online course that you can take on demand, which is a great start.

 

00:06:42:04 – 00:07:05:08

Margarita Eberline

But what I, what we really love to do is the actual workshop, because when we do the actual workshop, we meet one on one and we have those conversations with the team that it’s not going to happen in a in a team environment, right? We create a safe space for the receptionist to say, Well, you know, the reason why I’m snippy is because I’ve got, you know, the paralegal asking me to do her job.

 

00:07:05:08 – 00:07:34:25

Margarita Eberline

And I got the lawyer being rude, you know, and I’m the one that says, Hey, if mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy. Please be nicer to her. Because if she’s not in a good mood, that’s going to affect your business. And so, yeah, bring her bring her coffee. Right. Make sure your mental space and she’s connecting. He she is kind of usually it’s she you know, connecting with, with the, with the potential new customer, you know, and we get to get into those spaces and it happens because we do the we do the coaching piece.

 

00:07:34:25 – 00:07:56:24

Margarita Eberline

We have coaches like you know, not just me, like we have coaches on staff that are trained in mindset, in meditation and neuro linguistic programing and in sales. Obviously, we have sales coaches that that’s what they do all day long. It’s just coach on sales and yeah, and these other coaches. So with the combination of those two pieces, we’re able to help with the actual staff.

 

00:07:56:26 – 00:08:16:00

Margarita Eberline

And one thing that’s cool is I mean, we even had people that have gone through our workshops and our coaching that have said, Oh my gosh, this is actually changing my life. Like we had one woman a couple of months ago who was like in tears and she was like, Oh my God, I feel like for the first time in my life, I’m able to ask for what I want, like just in my life, right?

 

00:08:16:02 – 00:08:34:04

Margarita Eberline

And this just was a result of her. Hey, why aren’t you asking people to pay the consultation fee with more confidence? Well, you know, and then they get into those corporate and again, it happens in those one on one coaching. And we do that with the law firm owners, too. Like we’ve got a lot of loaners that are not charging what they’re worth.

 

00:08:34:06 – 00:08:56:03

Margarita Eberline

You know, we work a lot with P.I. where it’s contingency and it’s free consultation, right? But when you get to that point where you’ve got to tell somebody, hey, I’m an immigration attorney, you know, Joe Schmo gives you the free consultation, the other guy gives you a $50 consultation. I’m charging you 350. Ooh, that’s that’s tricky, right? So why is that tricky?

 

00:08:56:03 – 00:09:24:27

Margarita Eberline

Do you not feel like your time is worth that much like and so we have those conversations with the law firm owner to where it’s about, hey, let’s talk about money, Let’s talk about why you have trouble asking for money. Let’s talk about why people don’t see your worth, because that’s what you’re putting out. That’s like real heavy talk like we talked to had those conversations with some with some people where they’re like, oh, nobody wants to pay me what I’m worth, and they’ve got the chip on their shoulder and we’re like, okay, what about you expects that.

 

00:09:24:28 – 00:09:41:16

Margarita Eberline

What do you mean? I don’t expect that, really? And then we dig a little deeper and it’s this pattern of, you know, I expect to get my order wrong when I order the restaurant. I expect the dry cleaner to mess up. I expect my receptionist to book me at the wrong hotel, and I expect the customer to not want to pay the consultation.

 

00:09:41:19 – 00:09:47:08

Margarita Eberline

Let’s take some accountability and we do some of that work anyway. I can go on forever, but I do it well.

 

00:09:47:08 – 00:10:15:10

Patrick Carver

So your background is working in corporate marketing and large corporations. Like what? What do you what your experience that you’ve you’ve taken from there and been able to apply it to situations like that? Like what have you brought over that you see happens in the corporate side that maybe individual law firm owners don’t aren’t doing and that you’re you’re kind of bringing to the table.

 

00:10:15:12 – 00:10:39:04

Margarita Eberline

So the biggest piece, honestly is what led me to this that I was just talking about. But the biggest piece from corporate is making data driven decisions. It amazed how many law firm owners don’t understand even how to use basic data, like how many impressions are they getting on social media. They’re over here stressing, like I have people that still stress about how many Facebook followers they have.

 

00:10:39:04 – 00:11:02:21

Margarita Eberline

And I’m like, Who cares? Like the data? The data, the meaning of the follower data is less than actual impressions. And these are things that to me are basic because I worked at Nielsen, I worked at NBC, I worked at Telemundo, I worked at all these large corporations and they don’t talk about, Oh, I like this. Not that they talk about data, they talk about money.

 

00:11:02:21 – 00:11:24:08

Margarita Eberline

What’s making us money? What is it data set to do? That’s a given. And then I go to, you know, the brick and mortar law firm downtown, and they’re like data. Why? Like these kinds of videos? And this is more my personality. And I like what this ad says. And and I’m like, Your opinions are lovely, but what does the data say?

 

00:11:24:10 – 00:11:47:24

Margarita Eberline

And so I’m able to redirect their attention, you know, to benefit them, obviously, to what’s really going to give them the results that they want. And that’s to me, the biggest gift of marketing boss to a law firm is that we’re able to take these data driven decision making process is that I’ve created proprietary methods of applying them to specific law firm processes.

 

00:11:47:27 – 00:12:10:09

Margarita Eberline

So rather than, you know, Nielsen ratings data and post data and all this other data that I’m used to working with, I’m now taking concepts that make sense for law firms like, Hey, let’s look at our reach on social or our impressions on social versus just followers. And let’s track that and let’s set a goal of growing that by 10%.

 

00:12:10:09 – 00:12:45:29

Margarita Eberline

That’s realistic. If we increase not just the volume of content, but if we increase content based on X, Y, Z algorithms on X platform. Those are the conversations that I have with my clients. So they’re not wasting time, money, resources and really their their stress, putting faith in things that they’re asking for. Like that’s what’s crazy. Like a lot of these law firm owners that I work with, they used to ask for stuff that made no sense and then they would get upset with the vendor about why it didn’t work and the vendor would happily say, Oh, you want five, five videos a day?

 

00:12:45:29 – 00:13:03:29

Margarita Eberline

What’s going to cost you this much? I just made a sale. They don’t care, right? Because they’re selling the the work, they’re selling the labor, you know, and I have conversations with law firm owners like, look, you ask the social media vendor to give you this. They gave you your money’s worth. But the problem is that you asked for something that made no sense.

 

00:13:04:01 – 00:13:27:23

Margarita Eberline

They didn’t tell you because that’s not how they make their living. They make their living off of how many posts and videos they make. So let’s have a conversation. What are your sales goals? What does your data look like right now as a baseline? Let’s match them up to those sales goals. And if we want to increase our sales by this much, then that means we need to increase our reach, our exposure, our clicks on our on our campaigns.

 

00:13:28:00 – 00:13:47:12

Margarita Eberline

By this much and actually have some real solid numbers so that we can then work better with our vendors. So those are all that’s what they do at Columbia Pictures. That’s what they do at Nielsen. That’s what they do at NBC. Everything’s data, everything. So, you know, I remember working at NBC. I must’ve been like 16, 17 years old, you know, as an intern.

 

00:13:47:12 – 00:13:58:00

Margarita Eberline

And I’m like, Why I This is so dumb. Los Angeles. Why are we televising, like, stupid car chases and police ratings?

 

00:13:58:02 – 00:14:01:18

Patrick Carver

Right? Okay.

 

00:14:01:20 – 00:14:04:17

Margarita Eberline

Well, that’s just what it is. So.

 

00:14:04:19 – 00:14:38:09

Patrick Carver

Yeah, I think there’s the what I’m taking away from that is you know, I think law firms, you know, build their firms from the beginning with on a lot of like willpower. Right. And kind of gut level decision making. But then as you get to a certain stage where you’re trying to transition from doing all the work yourself to really being a manager and a leader, you have to, you know, kind of put your bets out and and then ensure that they are actually bringing back value.

 

00:14:38:09 – 00:14:56:22

Patrick Carver

And it’s a it’s a much more hands off approach. And so it’s I think it’s a different type of mindset. And, you know, which brings me to, you know, something we talked about. Tell me a little bit more about what what you consider the money mindset.

 

00:14:56:24 – 00:15:20:22

Margarita Eberline

The money mindset is about really in the sales and intake space, right? Is how comfortable are we asking for money or the sale or the next step in some cases, look, you’re consultation. In some cases it pay me $300, $100, whatever, for further consultation. But what a lot of law firm owners don’t realize is that trickles down from the top, right?

 

00:15:20:24 – 00:15:36:00

Margarita Eberline

If we have established value of what we do and why we’re the best and we’ve empowered our team to appropriate that sense of I’m the best, right? If I work at the best law firm, then that makes me the best receptionist.

 

00:15:36:02 – 00:15:36:23

Patrick Carver

Right?

 

00:15:36:26 – 00:15:56:27

Margarita Eberline

That makes me the creme de la creme, too. But oftentimes what happens is we have the people, I’m going to call it at the top, right where they’re the ones making the money. They’re that’s their name on the door. And these folks that are asking for the sale are not empowered by that same sense of I’m the best.

 

00:15:57:00 – 00:16:27:03

Margarita Eberline

I’m going to ask for what I want. And then we wonder why the phone rings and they don’t answer when it does ring and they do answer you know, they’re they’re just not connecting with people. It’s because that money mindset from the top of scarcity is there. So it’s really a scarcity thing, honestly. And it happens a lot with low level positions or low skilled workers, right, where they have this perception of themselves.

 

00:16:27:05 – 00:16:53:02

Margarita Eberline

Right. That that is saying to them maybe subconsciously, sometimes consciously, like I’m not important, like I don’t command respect. And so that’s what comes across on the phone and it ends up being a reflection of the law firm. And one of the best things that law firm owners can do is to empower these people that are in those positions to really have confidence in themselves and in their future at the firm.

 

00:16:53:02 – 00:17:19:18

Margarita Eberline

You know, I’m a big believer in it doesn’t matter how much money you make your important you’re an important piece of the puzzle. We were in the middle of finishing up a customized sales and intake workshop, and one of the things that came out is and we pick up on this through the use of language where people were saying things like, Oh, well, sometimes I’m doing my job and then I have to do her job because I ask, Why are you so short on the phone?

 

00:17:19:19 – 00:17:37:26

Margarita Eberline

I’m sure there must be a reason. And she says, Oh yeah, because I’m in the middle of doing my job and then I’ve got to do her job too. And I’m like, That’s interesting. If you’re a team, are you really doing her job or do you get to do her job? Do you get to assist your team mate with this task while she’s out there doing different things?

 

00:17:37:26 – 00:18:02:03

Margarita Eberline

Maybe she’s taking a breath because she just had a difficult conversation with somebody on the phone right. And it’s changing that mindset and that’s all tied back to money. It’s value, right? When a customer or a potential new customer says, I’ll get back to you. I’m not sure that’s money. Why aren’t they sure? Because they’re thinking twice about making that investment so they don’t see the value.

 

00:18:02:05 – 00:18:23:27

Margarita Eberline

They may not say the word money, but it’s it’s always about money, right? I mean, if you are calling a divorce lawyer, you know, and you’re like, you’re gone and you’re like, I’m going to think about it. You’re probably just worried about the money, right? Am I going to have what I need to live on my own? Like it’s always about the money.

 

00:18:23:27 – 00:18:41:21

Margarita Eberline

It’s never about the thing that you say it’s about. Or when you say, Oh, I’m going to take a week. Okay. And what do you think’s going to change between now and a week? Then the person starts talking. Well, maybe by then I’ll be able to do X, Y, and Z and be in a better fight. That’s always what comes out.

 

00:18:41:29 – 00:19:03:18

Margarita Eberline

Like when people say, Let me get back to you later. Right? And I’m and I’m using the worst, you know, law firm. But like immigration, same thing, right? Like, okay, great. Thanks for the information. Thanks for the consultation. They pay their $300 or $100, whatever it is. You know, I’m going to think about it. Okay. What is there to think about?

 

00:19:03:20 – 00:19:21:12

Margarita Eberline

You can’t do what you want to like, what else you got to think about. And there’s always more. And it always comes down to two money and it’s what are we putting out there about? Are we worth the money that we’re charging? Really, That’s the question to ask ourselves at the law firm. Are we worth the money that we’re charging?

 

00:19:21:15 – 00:19:30:10

Margarita Eberline

If we’re not, then we better be worth it. If we want to charge that. And if we are, why aren’t we saying it? Why don’t we believe it?

 

00:19:30:12 – 00:19:59:10

Patrick Carver

Yeah, that makes sense. When you get into these jobs, you know where you’re coming in and kind of overhauling an intake system. What are some of the most consistent mistakes that you see with with the I mean, with any part of it? The structure or really anything, but just some of those things that are synonymous with, you know, law firms that are kind of under optimized when it comes to intake.

 

00:19:59:12 – 00:20:21:15

Margarita Eberline

Ignoring people’s feelings. It’s literally one of the most powerful, powerful things that you can do is to pay attention to people’s feelings. We believe that people make decisions based on logic and they don’t. Most decisions are emotional. If I call your law firm and Betty, who answers the phone, just I feel like we’re old friends because she said my name back to me.

 

00:20:21:22 – 00:20:39:09

Margarita Eberline

She didn’t just say, Can I get your first name? Can I get your last name? She says, My name is Betty. What’s yours? Margarita. Okay. Margarita, I’m going to take down some information and get you exactly to what you need to do next. Just bear with me. You see the difference in that tone versus. Okay, I need your first name.

 

00:20:39:09 – 00:21:04:06

Margarita Eberline

Your last name. May you please tell your email like I’m ignoring the emotion. Betty called me because she just had a car accident or she’s in the middle of a divorce or she needs, you know, a green card because she’s about to get deported or whatever the legal issue is. Right. And she’s feeling all these emotions. And I completely ignore that if I’m not even a legal professional and I work at the worst law firm, but I take the time to connect with Betty and I keep saying her name.

 

00:21:04:06 – 00:21:22:26

Margarita Eberline

Your name’s not Betty, but you’re feeling the warm fuzzies, aren’t you? Because I’m saying Betty, my name is Marguerita. I’m going to take care of you. I’m going to just take down some information. Right? It goes a long way. And that’s one of the most effective ways to get people off the market, because Betty is going to remember that I said her name over and over.

 

00:21:22:26 – 00:21:44:03

Margarita Eberline

She felt comfortable with me. The other thing is mirroring. Mirroring is so powerful as well. It’s powerful in negotiation. It’s also powerful in connection. This is I’m talking 30 seconds in an elevator type connection. If the caller says I think I think I think I think then I respond with, well, I think you’re really going to like so-and-so.

 

00:21:44:03 – 00:22:04:24

Margarita Eberline

I’m going to set you up in consultation with Russell. He’s the best. I think that this is exactly what you need. If the caller says, I feel like I’m just so confused, I feel so scared, I feel so well, I’m so happy that you called. I personally am so happy that you called because we’ve helped so many people like you.

 

00:22:05:02 – 00:22:26:27

Margarita Eberline

And I feel like you’re going to really be comfortable here. You’re going to connect with our team. I’m mirroring the way the person speaking now the person feels, and this is all subconscious. Now the person feels a sense of familiarity with me. And those are two opportunities that most law firms miss because we have our checklist. We got to get the first name and last thing.

 

00:22:26:27 – 00:22:47:00

Margarita Eberline

We got to get the email. We got to qualify the case and we got to get him get out. And I’m not talking about adding 10 minutes to the call here either, right? It’s just making these statements. I’m so glad you called. My name’s Swank. What’s yours? And just marrying their language. You can still do it with 5 minutes or less in most cases.

 

00:22:47:00 – 00:23:12:01

Margarita Eberline

Right? For the initial intake, I know every firm is structured differently. Some people are like my people are trained to take you from, you know, the initial getting, getting your information to sending you a contract. You can do that. It may take longer. Some people are like, I have a call center or I have two people. All they do is answer the phone, get some surface information, and then we have a dragon or a salesperson that calls them back.

 

00:23:12:06 – 00:23:34:25

Margarita Eberline

Whatever your structure is, you can still follow that same formula of prioritizing connection. And we teach in our workshops and, you know, in an online course that there’s three main objectives that you should always hit at every single call. And one of them is connection. The other one is gathering information, and then the other one is building trust.

 

00:23:34:27 – 00:23:46:28

Margarita Eberline

So if I can build trust and connect with you and gather your information, I’m golden. I don’t have to be a lawyer or a paralegal or have been working at your law firm for more than a week to be able to do those things. It’s all.

 

00:23:46:28 – 00:24:19:09

Patrick Carver

Emotional. And do you feel like that that can be trained? Because I think some people, you know, that I’ve talked to in the past, you know, come from the place of, well, you know, my assistant can’t do that or I don’t think they’re you know, they’re ready to have those type of conversations. But because some of it sounds kind of, you know, not that challenging, but like, you know, that it’s either kind of a mentality someone has or they don’t.

 

00:24:19:09 – 00:24:36:20

Patrick Carver

But, I mean, have you do you feel like that’s been something that is totally trainable with a different law firms? Are there kind of, you know, basic fundamental pieces of a personality that that really you know, that are needed to make a be a good intake person?

 

00:24:36:22 – 00:24:57:06

Margarita Eberline

That’s a really good question. And I would have to say that my initial answer is yes, it can be train my or it is something that you can train anybody to do, but it’s going to take longer for some than others. Yes. Some people are just in such a bad space, like mentally and emotionally, that we can give them all of the training of one on one coaching.

 

00:24:57:06 – 00:25:23:27

Margarita Eberline

And it’s going to be years before they can get to where they need to be for that role. And so what I would like to offer as an alternative to stressing about can I train this person or not, is when you’re hiring sales and intake people. Yes, Look for people that are detail oriented and that can sell, but also ask them questions that will help you qualify, whether they have some of the fundamental things, mindset, things, right.

 

00:25:24:00 – 00:25:43:12

Margarita Eberline

Like their what is their attitude about money? Like how do they feel about asking for money? And you can tell by the way they negotiate their salary. If you’ve got somebody that you know you interview, that you’re interviewing for a sales and intake position and they don’t at least try to negotiate with you a little bit, that’s something to pay attention to, right?

 

00:25:43:19 – 00:26:10:01

Margarita Eberline

And you may have a generous package or whatnot. So, you know, maybe there’s no room to negotiate, but somebody that has the building blocks for a good like sales and intake mindset is somebody that’s going to be comfortable asking for what they want. They’re going to be comfortable speaking up, Hey, you’ve got me sending out these motions and responding and checking the mail and answering the phone.

 

00:26:10:01 – 00:26:13:16

Margarita Eberline

The call volume is going up a little bit too much. Can I get some help here? Right.

 

00:26:13:17 – 00:26:14:22

Patrick Carver

Yeah.

 

00:26:14:24 – 00:26:40:16

Margarita Eberline

That’s the kind of person that you want to keep, right? That’s the kind of person that you want to, like really value in that kind of position. If it’s somebody that’s a yes, please send me more work. Yes, Give me just takes. It’s amazing like that. That’s great. But really it. No, it’s not. Because if they can’t stand up to you and you’re their boss and you’re the safe space, how are they going to ask somebody that’s objecting?

 

00:26:40:18 – 00:27:09:02

Margarita Eberline

You know, how are they going to overcome the objections? How are they going to assert be assertive? Right. One thing that’s clear a lot with some of these positions is, you know, oh, do you want an appointment like with that insecure, you know, pay attention to to their tone when they do ask for something like are they asking you are telling you and these are things that you can pick up on when you’re interviewing people or vetting people for those types of positions.

 

00:27:09:04 – 00:27:27:03

Margarita Eberline

People that are comfortable asking for what they want, people that will give you feedback, right? Like actual constructive feedback, you or others, those are the types of people that you want in that position that are very coachable, very trainable, because they’re already wanting to be that way.

 

00:27:27:05 – 00:27:59:26

Patrick Carver

Yeah, What is a progression look like in your mind going from, say, a solo lawyer who, you know, has a growing business and kind of making that move from doing everything themselves, picking up all the phone calls to, you know, what I would consider kind of the apex of the, you know, the small law firm community where it’s probably a P.I. firm that’s got maybe multiple intake people, has a whole, you know, really well-established system.

 

00:27:59:26 – 00:28:09:02

Patrick Carver

Like what’s kind of the progression look like typically for organizations to develop their intake system over time.

 

00:28:09:04 – 00:28:19:07

Margarita Eberline

So I’m going to give you a funny visual that if you’re a parent, you’ll understand soon. Me remember when you well, okay, you’re not going to understand, but you’ll remember this.

 

00:28:19:09 – 00:28:19:27

Patrick Carver

Sure.

 

00:28:20:00 – 00:28:43:18

Margarita Eberline

When you’re single or it’s just you and your person, right? And you want to leave the house, you say to yourself, Let’s leave the house, and you grab your stuff, you put on your shoes and you leave the house. Once you have toddlers, it’s like we’re leaving the house. 20 minutes later, you went back in five times because somebody forgot their binky, their blanket, their shoe, and they need help with their shoes.

 

00:28:43:21 – 00:29:07:18

Margarita Eberline

They need help with their extra whatever. And it’s like it’s a it’s chaos. I think a lot of law firm owners that go from solo, where everything happens in their head have a huge shock when they try to take what’s in their head and assume that they can just transpose it onto what I’m going to call their children.

 

00:29:07:20 – 00:29:35:19

Margarita Eberline

Right, Right. I think it’s such a perfect metaphor because when you are a solopreneur and you’re doing everything, everything’s happening in your head, so there’s no extra steps. It’s easy, easy, right? It’s more work for you. But the logistics is easy when you go from being a solopreneur to having a team and outsourcing these things. If you do not slow down long enough to document things and to really think about processes that are going to work for others, not just you.

 

00:29:35:19 – 00:29:51:22

Margarita Eberline

And this happens in every business, not just law firms. You’re going to be stressed out if you don’t have that because your employees are going to come and they’re going to be like, okay, what do I do? And you’re going to be like, Handle the case. And they’re going to be like, What CRM are we using? What you know?

 

00:29:51:25 – 00:30:10:04

Margarita Eberline

And then you’re going to get frustrated because now you got to like sit down and train them and then they’re going to forget something and then you’re going to have to sit down and train them again. And this is all because you didn’t slow down long enough to think about your processes, documents and create onboarding materials and then give them to your team.

 

00:30:10:06 – 00:30:33:25

Margarita Eberline

Instead, they’re stuck. They’re stuck. They’re in a pretty shitty position to. Right. They’re stuck having to ask you for everything about everything. And you’re stressing out because you hired these people to do the work and now you’re doing double work because you’re having to think for them, right? Yeah. Like I’ve seen this happen so many times and this, the sales and intake is usually where we suffer the most.

 

00:30:33:25 – 00:30:55:11

Margarita Eberline

Obviously, you know, case management too, depending on the practice area, sometimes it’s trickier than others where you really do suffer in making that shift because you thought that you were just going to leave the house and it was just going to be an extra person leaving the house with you. But no, it’s chaos. It’s like, you know, turning a corner versus steering the Titanic in another direction.

 

00:30:55:11 – 00:31:12:14

Margarita Eberline

It takes time. And, you know, I think it’s so important for law firm owners to understand that you have to take the time to develop processes. And this goes for your marketing and sales and intake, but also just for your operations and case management because they bleed into each other. Yeah, you know.

 

00:31:12:17 – 00:31:32:06

Patrick Carver

So you think before kind of getting even hiring someone, say a first hire as an intake person, someone who can just be on the phone is following up with leads, stuff like that. You really want to set up your, your SOPs. You’re you want to set up your operating procedure and basically have a model for them to follow.

 

00:31:32:06 – 00:31:34:16

Patrick Carver

Is that kind of how I’m hearing it?

 

00:31:34:18 – 00:32:09:19

Margarita Eberline

Yeah, absolutely. And it doesn’t have to be this complicated, overwhelming thing either. Like literally, can you just take a couple hours to jot down bullet list format? What is supposed to happen from the moment somebody answers the phone, What information do they have to gather? And if you can branch it out by case type, just minimal qualifying questions that anybody can ask and document that and give that to someone because it’s I don’t think it’s a fair expectation, especially for like a low skill person that’s not a legal professional to expect them to know.

 

00:32:09:21 – 00:32:27:03

Margarita Eberline

Oh, to ask. Oh, were you given a citation after your accident? Like they don’t know that. You know that for a P.I. attorney, they’re not going to know that. You can’t assume that they’re right. You have to write it down somewhere. You know, like look for these five things and then move it to the next step and then further qualify.

 

00:32:27:05 – 00:32:44:07

Margarita Eberline

And that’s something that I see a lot, especially with the solopreneur size that’s trying to scale and delegate, where they just don’t have that documented anywhere. And people struggle to do a good job even with the best training, because they don’t have those resources.

 

00:32:44:10 – 00:33:13:25

Patrick Carver

That make sense. Some of the things that I’ve seen have a big impact on just efficiency of intake is, you know, things like intake software. So having somewhere to manage your pipeline, just, you know, it kind of surprised me talking with some some clients about, you know, how they they organize incoming leads and you know it’s it’s it’s basically sticky notes, right.

 

00:33:13:27 – 00:33:35:20

Patrick Carver

So software potentially having an answering service after hours so that you’re not, you know so you always have someone on. Are there other kind of components like that that you that come to your mind when thinking about what you would put into like a, you know, an essential intake system package?

 

00:33:35:22 – 00:34:00:12

Margarita Eberline

Well, I think it’s tricky because as a marketer I focus on the marketing aspect and then obviously as somebody that cares about our role, I look at the lead aspects. So let me explain a little bit more about what I mean. So most law firms have like a mickey or a Cleo or some sort of legal software where they can put in leads that they want to follow up with right?

 

00:34:00:14 – 00:34:24:24

Margarita Eberline

But as a marketer, I’m always like, Well, what about the ones that are we’re not sure if they’re even qualified or that we know they’re not qualified and we want to refer them out or stay in touch or whatnot, What then? Right. So what I always want to encourage law firm owners to think about is have a strategy for how you’re going to follow up with qualified leads, but also unqualified leads, right?

 

00:34:24:24 – 00:34:55:09

Margarita Eberline

That maybe their case type is is outside of your area because there’s a there’s a saying that, you know, the average funeral is about 250 people and the average wedding is about 250 people, which means that most of us know 250 people. So if you took the time to acquire me as a lead, even if I’m not a qualified case, you might as well keep me in your network because I’m going to know somebody that needs a P.I. attorney, immigration attorney or somebody, right?

 

00:34:55:12 – 00:35:14:06

Margarita Eberline

So you might as well develop that relationship. And why not do it through automation? Why not put them into a, you know, email marketing or a text message marketing and add them to what I like to call a know like and trust series? You know, like some sort of content that lets you know more about us and why you should like us.

 

00:35:14:06 – 00:35:39:11

Margarita Eberline

And what are some, you know, stories that we can share with you or case studies, etc., so that we can stay in touch, send you a happy birthday, text, all of those things. So software wise, I have not found one robust software that can take care of all those areas. Most case management systems have some sort of leak pipeline type thing and then others would be like a CRM for marketing.

 

00:35:39:14 – 00:36:13:01

Margarita Eberline

So it’s always but I find it’s usually two separate. So one of the things that we do at Marketing Boss is we help bring in programmers that can help integrate your system so that it’s like a seamless thing for your team. Another Band-Aid solution which you and I have discussed, is sometimes it’s nice, even if it’s just tracking the phone calls within the actual phone call tracking system to have some sort of tagging system or some sort of note system so that we can track how many of those leads converted, where they come from.

 

00:36:13:01 – 00:36:40:21

Margarita Eberline

And, you know, for the ones that didn’t converge, like how are we planning to follow up? And there’s some sort of accountability or like a log of everything that’s come in for law firms, Usually the call tracking software is a nice happy medium. Like if you don’t have your email CRM integrated with your case management CRM, yet at minimum you can have some sort of sense of what’s happening with all your leads by creating these systems inside your call tracking system.

 

00:36:40:24 – 00:36:51:29

Margarita Eberline

Unless you’re crazy and you don’t have a cost tracking system, it’s like, why? You might as well, right? I just I don’t understand law firms that don’t have that.

 

00:36:52:01 – 00:37:19:03

Patrick Carver

Well, it’s interesting. Do you have have you encountered firms And what you what do you say to firms who are reluctant to use dynamic number insertion, which is geeky term for call tracking, you know, with it because they say, well, people, you know, they want to know my you know, my number. I have a special number or whatever the rationale is, but they’re afraid to let go of that for the tracking purpose.

 

00:37:19:06 – 00:37:20:20

Patrick Carver

What what do you say to them?

 

00:37:20:22 – 00:37:43:08

Margarita Eberline

So so there’s two things if you really want to use your bounty number on everything, that’s cool, then just be willing to pay for the labor to still track calls and still audit them audibly. Like to pay somebody to listen and to try to figure out what the source was. Right? Yeah, worst case scenario. But the biggest thing is this idea of the vanity number, right?

 

00:37:43:08 – 00:38:10:21

Margarita Eberline

The the one 800 call your best lawyer, whatever. Right. People on digital don’t care Like they just see the and they click like they really don’t care what the number is. So it’s better to just use a dynamic number and know where that we came from. Don’t be afraid that the person is going to, you know, not know that you’re the, you know, 2 to 2 Billboard guy.

 

00:38:10:21 – 00:38:44:28

Margarita Eberline

Right, Right. Which brings me to my next point that numbers are great for billboards and fliers and, you know, things that are printed, maybe even TV commercials, But for the most part, you can get away with using dynamic track numbers on just about any digital asset from your ads your website, Google my business. I love having data from, you know, call real or I forget what the one that you and I were talking about is where you can actually see what actual page they converted from.

 

00:38:45:00 – 00:38:45:17

Patrick Carver

Go to.

 

00:38:45:19 – 00:38:46:29

Margarita Eberline

Your website.

 

00:38:47:02 – 00:39:18:01

Patrick Carver

Yeah that’s that’s right Yeah we actually the last podcast I did was actually the owner of that company what converts. Okay Yeah. Getting into the details of attribution and I’ve actually heard another, you know, another pushback on the the number tracking which was that, you know, basically when someone comes in, they’ll see a they’ll see one number, but then when we call them back, it’ll be a different number and it creates this big mess of confusion.

 

00:39:18:03 – 00:39:35:24

Patrick Carver

But I feel like that that can be kind of easily remedied in the intake system process when, you know, basically you come back and just say, Hey, write down this number or this is our you know, this is our best number. Like we, you know, we track you, we have other you might have seen another number or something like that.

 

00:39:35:27 – 00:39:37:18

Patrick Carver

Do you ever encounter that?

 

00:39:37:20 – 00:40:00:11

Margarita Eberline

Yeah. And oh my God, such a simple solution. We can communicate with our clients, right? Or May number is problem solved. You’d be amazed, like how many customers are very understanding because we live in a digital marketing age when they become your client and you say to them, okay, by the way, you might have called us at one number, I might have called you from another number.

 

00:40:00:13 – 00:40:18:16

Margarita Eberline

This is the number that I want you to save on your phone. It’s our client number or whatever. Like, Oh, okay, easy. I’ll give you a minute while you do that. Okay, Easy Fix, right? Takes a couple of minutes. And why throw out the baby with the bathwater? Why am I going to lose data on what’s working, how it’s working, where it’s coming from?

 

00:40:18:18 – 00:40:23:24

Margarita Eberline

You know, just so that I don’t have to have the inconvenience of explaining that to you. Yeah.

 

00:40:23:26 – 00:40:45:01

Patrick Carver

Yeah. Well, it seems like once, you know, if if you can accomplish some of these other things through training and you kind of break the, you know, figure out that the solution to that, then it’s like a superpower, right? You can apply that same ability, train and, you know, create those SOPs and get people all marching in the same direction.

 

00:40:45:01 – 00:40:50:04

Patrick Carver

And it’s really not a big a big problem once once you break it down like that.

 

00:40:50:06 – 00:41:15:00

Margarita Eberline

And speaking of training, to a lot of law firm owners are afraid to train their customers. I, I have a wonderful testimonial from an immigration lawyer in California and I adore what she said because she proved me right. I’ve had so many immigration lawyers at work with Spanish speakers say to me, Oh, I don’t want to do email marketing, Hispanics don’t have an email address.

 

00:41:15:02 – 00:41:39:27

Margarita Eberline

And so they would try to get the email address and the person on it would be like, Oh, nothing. Like I don’t have one. Right? And they because they already put that out there. So it’s kind of like they weren’t even expecting it and they weren’t assertive with that. She was like, I built my entire law firm. All my marketing is in Spanish and everybody has an email whenever they try to tweet me and tell me I don’t have an email, I tell them, okay, give me the same email you used to create your Facebook account.

 

00:41:39:27 – 00:41:43:00

Margarita Eberline

I know you have a Facebook account because that’s how you found me.

 

00:41:43:02 – 00:41:43:22

Patrick Carver

Oh.

 

00:41:43:24 – 00:41:46:16

Margarita Eberline

Yeah, there’s that one.

 

00:41:46:18 – 00:41:47:08

Patrick Carver

Yeah.

 

00:41:47:11 – 00:42:04:00

Margarita Eberline

She trained her customers. She didn’t accept the pushback. And as law firm owners, sometimes we accept the pushback more than we need to know. Train them, they less. They can save a different number on their phone. You can explain a lot of that stuff away.

 

00:42:04:03 – 00:42:34:09

Patrick Carver

Yeah, No, that’s. That’s really great. I just. I really like, you know, how you position yourself and just what you’re bringing to the law firms as far as you know, just I think I’m unwillingness to be it’s status quo. Right. And you know, sometimes I’ve gotten in these situations with, with, you know, clients or other people where, you know, we’re confident we’re delivering value, but they’re not they’re not set up to properly utilize it.

 

00:42:34:09 – 00:43:01:25

Patrick Carver

And so it ends up being, you know, they leave and it’s not good for anybody, you know, And we feel frustrated and I’m sure they do, too, when, you know, I think some of this can be settled out in, you know, with through through communication, through proper training. And, you know, you’ve been very gracious with your time. I wanted to see if I could get one more question in about, you know, you’ve talked a lot about data.

 

00:43:02:03 – 00:43:15:03

Patrick Carver

And I think for a lot of what lawyers that probably immediately like, they they go, you know, ready to go to sleep when they hear that. Right.

 

00:43:15:05 – 00:43:20:19

Margarita Eberline

And to document what’s ahead. I went to law school to not do math, right? Yeah.

 

00:43:20:19 – 00:44:00:12

Patrick Carver

Yeah, for sure. But but I think what I was like, you know, going through I think what I was what stuck out to me is what you’re describing with like call tracking systems, like what converts are called real, Like data doesn’t have to be, you know, this, this like super complicated thing where you’re analyzing spreadsheet, you know, a bunch of spreadsheets and doing qualitative analysis or anything like literally the kind of data I think that you’re talking about is, is really just looking at, you know, getting some accountability with with the results.

 

00:44:00:12 – 00:44:27:28

Patrick Carver

Right. And it can be as simple as, you know, going through your list of calls and figuring out where they came from or even figuring out, you know, which of those actually became clients and then trying to make some assumptions or conclusions about where those people came from. Just so you’re better informed. It’s like, you know, I don’t think your goal is to turn any of, you know, your clients into like data scientists.

 

00:44:27:28 – 00:44:38:01

Patrick Carver

I think it’s just more about showing them where to look and what to look for, and that can have a huge impact on on their business.

 

00:44:38:03 – 00:44:57:05

Margarita Eberline

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean we’re the data analysts like that’s what that’s what they hire us for. We’ll do all that boring data and analysis for you and give you the top level highlight. But as far as an owner, day to day stuff that you can use. Absolutely. Just audit your calls every once in a while and get a sense of where are your calls coming from?

 

00:44:57:05 – 00:45:16:02

Margarita Eberline

Just poke around. Right? You don’t have to sit there for hours. You can just poke around, get a bird’s eye view. You know, as long as you kind of sort of know what you’re looking at, you know, and go from there. You know, the same thing with with social, you know, we did a workshop the other day about auditing your law firm, and everybody was all like, overwhelmed, like, oh, gosh, she’s going to pull out a spreadsheet.

 

00:45:16:02 – 00:45:41:05

Margarita Eberline

And I was like, Hey, open up your Instagram and check to see on average, you know, your top views that you’ve gotten on a video. What is it and what’s the lowest one? Okay, Now come up with a number somewhere in the middle and aim for that every time you post a real. Yeah, like it can be simple and you just you can just look for certain, you know, trends with whatever software you got.

 

00:45:41:05 – 00:45:59:12

Margarita Eberline

If you’ve got a call tracking system, great. If you’ve got a website, you probably have data on how many visitors you have that’s helpful to know Are they going up or down? You know, you’re posting for blogs, by blogs, whatever, you know, Is that bringing you more traffic? Are you getting more phone calls?

 

00:45:59:18 – 00:46:00:07

Patrick Carver

Yeah.

 

00:46:00:09 – 00:46:03:01

Margarita Eberline

Your website. Then. Okay, that’s data to look for.

 

00:46:03:09 – 00:46:31:12

Patrick Carver

Simple makes sense. I think it has such a big impact to once have. Everybody is moving in the same direction, both marketing team, law firm and you know, everybody’s kind of on the same page as to what metrics we’re actually looking at and which ones matter the most. And I think with that, you know, there can be a lot, a lot less animosity between the two groups.

 

00:46:31:15 – 00:46:57:12

Patrick Carver

So when we you know, when I work on the the PTSD retreat for lawyers for marketing, I’ll be sure to holler at you. But really appreciate your time. And I got a lot of really good information from what you what you’ve shared and you know so where can working folks find you? I know you know, you’ve got a website, you’re doing workshops, you’re doing a bunch of stuff.

 

00:46:57:12 – 00:47:11:06

Patrick Carver

Maybe you can just share, you know, the best place to to reach out to you and how they can kind of connect with you and get started with, you know, intake intake process help or, you know, whatever, whatever they might be needing with their firm.

 

00:47:11:09 – 00:47:36:03

Margarita Eberline

Right? So I love connecting on social media. So Instagram, margarita line, LinkedIn, same thing. Tik Tok on Facebook I’m Margit ever line that’s my nickname but everywhere else it’s Marguerita Adeline and I love connecting on social media. Just me. I’m very much a one on one person and then my website is you can get there by marketing Dash Bascombe or my name Margarita Everleigh.

 

00:47:36:06 – 00:47:55:06

Margarita Eberline

Those are some ways to get connected and I love sharing content and I hope that it’s entertaining for a lot of our clients because I have a lot of fun making it and it’s definitely a part of brand and our culture is to, you know, just have fun, live our best lives, connect with our clients and, you know, make money, help make money.

 

00:47:55:06 – 00:47:55:24

Margarita Eberline

So.

 

00:47:55:27 – 00:48:08:09

Patrick Carver

Yeah, awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time and we’ll have to do it again and we can cover some other topics for lawyers. So thank you so much. And I hope you have a great rest of your day.

 

00:48:08:12 – 00:48:09:09

Margarita Eberline

Awesome. Thank you.

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